Talk:Stephen K. Hayes

Article Cleanup

Most of the statements in this page have no citations for them. Please provide citations for them, or they will be removed. Here is the list:

1. Black Belt Hall of Fame member, An-shu Hayes is a noted martial arts author. cite for Black Belt Hall of Fame

2. The nineteen books he has authored have sold over 1.3 million copies and have been translated into five languages only sixteen books listed. Need cite to bibliography or other source

3. He is a 1971 graduate of Miami University with a Bachelor of Arts degree in theater. difficult to verify. Ideally a source would be required, but not essential

4. He has worked as an actor, notably in the TV miniseries Shogun. source needed

5. He is married to Rumiko Urata. see comment for #3

6. The couple has two daughters, Reina and Marissa. see comment for #3

7. Stephen K. Hayes is considered an authority on ninjutsu and a knowledgeable practitioner of esoteric Tendai mikkyo Buddhism. source needed

8. Today, Mr. Hayes lives and works in Dayton, Ohio, and was once again featured on the cover of Black Belt magazine for their March 2007 issue. source needed for statement about Black Belt magazine

9. The issue contains a chapter from his soon-to-be-released book Ninja Vol 6, Secret Scrolls of the Warrior Sage. source needed

10. The magazine’s opening editorial as well focuses on Mr. Hayes, and describes him as "one of the 10 most influential living martial artists in the world." source needed

11. After graduating from Miami University in 1971, he spent time in search of authentic martial traditions, working his way up to sam dan in the Korean martial art of Tang Soo Do (tangsudo). see comment for #3

12. Frustrated with the limitations he'd encountered in his training, he packed his bags and headed for Japan. source needed

13. In June of 1975, he finally met the teacher he'd been seeking all his life in Grandmaster Masaaki Hatsumi, the founder of Bujinkan Dōjō. source needed

14. Stephen K. Hayes returned to the United States, and with his close friend Bud Malmstrom set off the "ninja boom" of the 1980s, creating one of the largest martial arts phenomena since Bruce Lee. source needed

15. During this time, he helped introduce ninjutsu to America and Western Europe and is responsible for many people becoming aware of ninjutsu. source needed

16. A number of today's senior American Bujinkan practitioners began training with Hayes during this time period, including Bud Malmstrom, Jack Hoban, Mark Davis, Jean-Pierre Seibel, Courtland Elliott, and many more. source needed

17. In 1991 Hayes also received Tokudo priesthood ordination in Tendai Buddhism from Tendai Master and Vajra Acharya Dr. Clark Jikai Choffy. source needed

18. In 1993, Hayes was awarded the judan (tenth degree black belt) degree from Grandmaster Hatsumi. source needed

19. In 1997, he founded the martial art of To-Shin Do, an art based in his experience of budo taijutsu and life experiences, including security escort work for the Dalai Lama of Tibet. source needed

20. Hayes has also founded a Buddhist Order based on his teachings and experiences with Tibetan Buddhism and Tendai called the Blue Lotus Assembly. source needed

21. Hayes and his SKH Quest Corporation have continued with their work of making martial arts accessible to people everywhere. source needed

22. The SKH Quest network now spans 18 schools in 12 states. source needed

23. During his time in Japan, Hayes occasionally worked as a photographic model. He can be seen in the handbook for the Canon AE1 camera, holding the camera. source needed

24. He was the stunt double for Richard Chamberlain in the TV miniseries Shogun. source needed

Again, this is an encyclopedia entry. Please see the standards on verifiability.

Dammokles 19:16, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

With some possible exceptions, I believe that most of these items can be adequately sourced from Stephen Hayes's website which, according to Wikipedia's policy on self-published sources is acceptable. Lawyer2b 23:09, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Completely agree with L2B - and most of these are just plain silly.

"Black Belt Hall of Fame member, An-shu Hayes is a noted martial arts author. cite for Black Belt Hall of Fame"

"Black Belt Hall of Fame" *is* the source.

"He is a 1971 graduate of Miami University with a Bachelor of Arts degree in theater. difficult to verify. Ideally a source would be required, but not essential"

Yeah, and we may want to make sure he's really a man, too, right?

"He has worked as an actor, notably in the TV miniseries Shogun. source needed" [[1]] will add to article.

"He is married to Rumiko Urata. see comment for #3"

Stupid.

"The couple has two daughters, Reina and Marissa. see comment for #3"

Stupid.

"Today, Mr. Hayes lives and works in Dayton, Ohio, and was once again featured on the cover of Black Belt magazine for their March 2007 issue. source needed for statement about Black Belt magazine"

The source for the statement *is* the March 2007 issue.

"The issue contains a chapter from his soon-to-be-released book Ninja Vol 6, Secret Scrolls of the Warrior Sage. source needed"

See above - the magazine is the source. Etc. Etc. Etc. Jikaku 17:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Affiliation with Bujinkan - controversial and poorly sourced?

Wondering if the section on the bujinkan affiliation needs to be removed (violation of living persons/biography) - it's certainly controversial, with little more than a lot of hearsay evidence, and links to comments from discussion forums (not suitable as sources according to wikipedia guidelines as far as I know). Even the jpg of a comment that appeared on the personal page of an administrator at the Bujinkan hombu doesn't list a name. Should this section be removed pending legit source? Jikaku 17:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, its definately not "academic". The controversy all stems from "what some guy on an internet forum heard". And I've read that it comes anywhere from Hayes giving out certain honors without checking, to failure to pay dues to the Bujinkan. I'd say pull it, especially since Hayes also claims its just a rumour. JN322 15:33, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

It is not academic, it is a fact. I was present the day Hatsumi Sensei asked George Ohashi to take down Steve's nafuda kake from the wall, saying "He no longer has anything to do with the Bujinkan." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.170.120.83 (talk) 23:05, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

"I was there and I saw it..." doesn't actually meet the standards necessary for an encyclopedia article though - what if I say *I* was there, and you just misunderstood what happened? And then five five people that agree with me? It becomes a big hearsay war - which is why articles rely on primary published sources as much as they possibly can. Especially when it comes to controversial material about living people, if it's not sourced, it shouldn't go in. As you can see (assuming you've read the talk board here before editing) even getting relatively non-controversial material in still needs sufficient citations in order to be included. Jikaku (talk) 13:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Since there was confusion about whether the removal happened or not, I asked the administrator who was said to have been ordered to take down the name. His name is George Ohashi and he can be found at his own website for confirmation. Merely do a internet search of Bujinkan Ayase and Honbu classes scheduale and his name and you wil find his web page and how to contact him directly. I suggest that anyone who wishes to post the most truthful account here take the time to contact him before removing anything again. He can confirm that he was ordered to take it down and give the reasons he was given by Dr Hatsumi. Kidotai (talk) 23:34, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

As was mentioned before "I was there and I saw it..." doesn't actually meet the standards necessary for an encyclopedia article. Since this is the biography for a living person, and this is controversial, it needs to meet those wikipedia verifiability guidelines. "You can call and ask so-and-so" doesn't cut it. Jikaku (talk) 23:31, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

It is not that case at all. It is more a case of "I did it." You previously mentioned that even people who saw the event might not know what was going on. That is not the case here. George Ohashi knows what he did and why he did it. It is verifiable. It is easy to see that he is what he says. So there really does not seem to be a reason, other than convenience, for people to find out the truth. Kidotai (talk) 05:24, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

This still does not meet the guidelines for inclusion in an encyclopedia article. Jikaku (talk) 13:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

When it comes to biographies of living persons, wiki policy says: "Self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs[5] should never be used as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article." Which means the recent source used doesn't qualify, and *also* according to wikipedia policy, needs to be removed immediately. Jikaku (talk) 18:27, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the web page I referenced is not self published. The author of the article is not the owner of the site.Kidotai (talk) 21:57, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. I ran it by Nate1481, resident citation/verifiability expert, and we both agree that this source meets wiki policy standards.Jikaku (talk) 12:43, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd just like to say I am far from an expert, I have just been round the houses on these things a few times

While it is not the perfect peer review journal, i.e. the gold standard, I do think that it is of reasonable quality for the information It's supporting, i.e. stating why he's not listed on the Bujinkan website and that he one was. The article, and the information, is not attacking or Sycophantic, and seems to be a 3rd party publishing (yes to a website) and the information is given as an example. For this kind of information I can't think of another way of sourcing it other than a report of an internal communication, i.e. a secondary source which this seems to be. --Nate1481(^t/_c) 13:20, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

UPDATE Fall 2010

Since the last discussions of this were posted, there have been several updates in terms of what we know.

• Hayes admits his name was taken from the board http://stephenkhayes.com/the-densho/page/6/
• Hayes indicates that he was never rebuked by Hatsumi-soke, and continues to receive hand written letters as recently as 2009 suggesting he wear a red suit for his birthday: http://stephenkhayes.com/the-densho/page/5/
• The translated letter sent from Hatsumi to Hayes on his 60th birthday http://stephenkhayes.com/2009/09/09/60th-birthday-celebration/
• The Bujinkin group admit that Hayes' name plank was removed.

FACT: Hayes name plank was removed from the Bujinkin hombu wall. all parties agree.

However The explanation regarding the WHY is where we risk going into rumor and lack of substantiation.

• The most direct explanation from Hatsumi-soke that anyone can agree on was: that Hayes no longer participates in the Bujinkin, (especially with his foundation of To-Shin Do).
• Therefore: no longer participating as a member does not equal expulsion, censure, or excommunication. That assertion is the hearsay part of the issue. And expulsion seems to be empirically denied because a) there is no statement from Hatsumi and b) there continue to be personal letter writing from Hatsumi to Hayes.

Consequently, I think we should phrase it that Hayes' name plate was removed from the roster of active Bujinkin teachers. No one disputes that fact, and it keeps Wikipedia out of rumor mongering and sniping. Greenshinobi (talk) 02:11, 28 November 2010 (UTC)Greenshinobi

Sourcing

Err where in the Bio guidelines? I looked and it just recommends WP:reliable sources. --Nate1481(^t/_c) 14:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

WP:V#Questionable sources says "Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer; see WP:BLP#Reliable sources." and "it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;" The tag is not unreasonable, it just asks for an external source--Nate1481(^t/_c) 14:57, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

But this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SELFPUB#Self-published_and_questionable_sources_in_articles_about_themselves

says: Material from self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources in articles about themselves, so long as:

it is relevant to their notability; it is not contentious; it is not unduly self-serving; it does not involve claims about third parties; it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject; there is no reasonable doubt as to who authored it; the article is not based primarily on such sources. Jikaku (talk) 15:01, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject; and it is not unduly self-serving; are questionable, either way primary source are explicitly not ideal so requesting an improved one is appropriate. --Nate1481(^t/_c) 15:21, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Considering all the updates - I'm wondering if we can go ahead and remove he "needs citations" box from the page? Jikaku (talk) 13:16, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Ideally all would be secondary sources, but the contentious ones are so I have no problem with it. You may find the tag is re-added at a later date by another editor. --Nate1481(^t/_c) 14:26, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I wonder about the source for the claim of being a bodyguard for the Dalai Lama. If I understand the guidelines, you try to avoid stuff that originates from the subject themselves and instead prefer other sources. But the source for the claims of being a bodyguard are linked to a site that is taken almost word for word from STephen Hayes' own website. It is a group that will allow you to join for a small fee and then supply the biographical information you want the world to see. And since there is a great deal of doubt that Stephen Hayes actually was a full fledged bodyguard, I wonder if this claim needs to be backed up by another source. Kidotai (talk) 05:28, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

In this instance, there's also photographic and video evidence, and for biographies of living persons published material that comes from "the subject themselves" is considered perfectly acceptable. According to wiki policy, "Self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article" - of course the bodyguard information also appears in the Ohara books, and according to wiki policy these are considered reliable sources. I'd considered getting a nice letter from the Office of the Dalai Lama to scan and include, but I'm not sure if that would constitute "original research" - I think it would. In any case, since there's so much reliable evidence for this claim that's been published, it certainly can't hurt to add more citations for it - though to be fair, it doesn't *need* the extra citations in order to be considered viable and reliable. If you have appropriate citations for the "...since there is a great deal of doubt" comment, you can certainly include that information as well, however if it's just "well, I heard it from this guy who knows this other guy" it's just hearsay bordering on libel. Jikaku (talk) 13:01, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

While not going into the doubt aspect, it is important to source or it could be considered advertising. As a martial artist; saying you have been a bodyguard for an important person would increase your reputation, so asking for an independent source rather than accepting it at face value it fair, then those who actually have can differentiate themselves, I've lost count of the number of arts that Rangers, Seals and the SAS apparently use exclusively... --Nate1481(^t/_c) 08:40, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand a) why the original writers didn't do research and b) why the snipers just sit around and bitch? Do the research, document it, and move on. In this example, it is a well-documented fact that the U.S. Secret Service provides security for visiting dignitaries and foreign heads of state. (Remember, the DL is considered to be the leader of Tibet). However, due to political sensitivities with the Chinese, the U.S. Secret Service declined to provide protection when the Dalia Lama visited the States. Meanwhile, Hayes being tapped for the duties of dignitary protection were documented in both traditional news media and martial arts journals:

Copyright 1998 Dayton Newspapers, Inc. Dayton Daily News (Ohio)

• April 9, 1998, Thursday, HEADLINE: DEDICATED TOWARD HIS QUEST; STEPHEN K. HAYES WILL HELP WITH SECURITY FOR THE DALAI LAMA

BYLINE: Mickey Zezzo FOR THE DAYTON DAILY NEWS

and in

• Toller, Dennis "Once the West's Most Celbrated Ninja, Stephen K. Hayes Has Moved Beyond the Assasin Image. Black Belt :::Magazine, October 1998. p.35Greenshinobi (talk) 00:25, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

And to Nate1481: When you say 'I've lost count of the number of arts that Rangers, Seals and the SAS apparently use exclusively..' At the risk of being cynical the answer is just about all of them. Well, so many martial arts instructors/consultants claim to have trained special forces we could just as well list the people that don't claim to have instructed troops and law enforcement.Greenshinobi (talk) 00:25, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Author

Just wanted to briefly point out that a list of books authored by SKH was included with this bio, until it was argued that it didn't contibute much to the article, and that numerous links from the article lead to other references as well as places where you can buy the various books. I figure, if that's a good enough reason to not include the list, it's probably also a good enough reason to remove the "cite" tag from the authorship claim, doncha think? Jikaku (talk) 12:13, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

It may have been a little over picky, but I prefer my wording as less POV, a ref to his publisher would be good though. --Nate1481(^t/_c) 12:16, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, your wording is better - the link to Ohara (the publisher for many of his books) is already listed, and it might be awkward to just include a list of publishers, especially when we're talking about something that is so easily verifiable by anyone who really wants to know, I mean, just type in Stephen K. Hayes in amazon.com for example, and there you go :-) I notice that his pro-shop currently sells only 15 of his titles, minus one other verifiable (though possibly out of print work) "Tulku."

Perhaps we should change the entry from "over 19" to "over 15" to be more accurate?Jikaku (talk) 12:24, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

That could work I'll leave it up to you to make call on that --Nate1481(^t/_c) 12:31, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

bodyguard claim

>>In the 1990s, Hayes regularly served as personal protection escort and security advisor for 1989 Nobel Peace Prize winner, Tenzin >>Gyatso, the Dalai Lama of Tibet [9].

I dont think the Dalai Lama hires private body guards, other than his monks & the security provided by Indian government. the source for this claim is Mr Hayes own website. Are there any other more neutral references? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.2.3.58 (talk) 10:13, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know of any "independently published" material supporting this, however there is copious photographic evidence, multiple eyewitness accounts from members of his dojo who also participated, as well as a very nice conversation I had with the Dalai Lama's brother while in the company of Mr. Hayes where they talked about the "good old days" riding around in his "big car" (Mr. Hayes' personal verhicle was used to drive the Dalai Lama around while he was in the Ohio/Indiana mid-west area). To this day, the Dalai Lama doesn't visit his brother's center in Bloomington Indiana (on whose Board of Directors Mr. Hayes has served - and still may, not sure) without calling him to chat, and invite him out for a visit. --Jikaku (talk) 03:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Web Link The Dalai Lama's brother passed away this week, and Mr. Hayes' wrote a nice piece remembering his friend of many years, along with some wonderful photographs of the two of them together.

another web link this is the page of Dr. Richard Sears, a martial arts student of Mr. Hayes who served on the security team put together by Mr. Hayes for the Dalai Lama. Mr. Hayes is not in the photo on this page, as he's the person taking the picture.

Ten seconds on Lexis Nexis:

       * April 9, 1998, Thursday, HEADLINE: DEDICATED TOWARD HIS QUEST; STEPHEN K. HAYES WILL HELP WITH SECURITY FOR THE DALAI LAMA

   BYLINE: Mickey Zezzo FOR THE DAYTON DAILY NEWSGreenshinobi (talk) 21:05, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

well known photo

I really think all of this adds up enough to remove the "dubious" tag. --Jikaku (talk) 03:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Would it not have been mentioned in a local paper or something? The current source is not really engough to support him being a bodyguard for a world renowned figure, something more is needed. --Nate1481 09:45, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, why in the world *would* it have been mentioned in the newspaper? Ever see a list of bodyguard names printed before? Even if it were... how many newspapers from the 1990's are online and available for sourcing? In any case - this is more than what we had as far as sourcing the *last time* this came up, and that amount was acceptable to you *then* - why is even more now suddenly not enough? --Jikaku (talk) 15:41, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have been clearer I meant when the Dalai Lama visited, not while Hayes was working. In regard to sourcing they don't have to be online, Library frequently have news paper archives, ans that said many papers have old issues scanned in. This is why I suggested it, newspapers are not the only sources, it was just a suggesion. The sourcing was better than nothing and I had hoped that the sourcing would improve. I have no knowladge of how the Lama recruits bodyguards, but if someone is questioning it then tht requires a better source. The core of the problem is that something direct from Hayes or based on information from his is not a secondary source. This needs as souce that it unrelated to Hayes, an image of Hayes with him only shows that he has met him, not that he was a body guard. --Nate1481 16:23, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

"Young, Robert. "Editorial - March 2007". http://www.blackbeltmag.co/archives/553. Retrieved 2008-11-04." on display instead of in the refs

I have no idea how to fix this one. --Asperchu (talk) 17:10, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

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