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This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
On 5 November 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Edward I. The result of the discussion was no consensus.
The important fact that Edward slew perhaps seven thousands, and likely more, at Berwick is obscured by a reference in a link to a particular bloody attack. Many articles in wikipedia include such facts in biographies, like that of pope Benedict VII of Avignon who only helped slay five thousand at Cesenai (when he was a cardinal). Edward's article might also mention his singular achievement of killing off the biggest burgh in Scotland and add it to his proud death toll. 1f2 (talk) 12:04, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps the issue is more whether it is described as a "bloody attack" (as here) or captures that it features a massacre of civilians? It doesn't sound like there is much doubt that Edward ordered some kind of civilian massacre. Jim Killock(talk)11:42, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've amended this to say there was a massacre, without getting into numbers, as that seems to be the main point (not just a "bloody seige"). Jim Killock(talk)18:13, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi there, having spent some time reading this article thoroughly now, I think there are some fairly important omissions from it. Most would not require major fixes, but given this has a FA status I do think they need addressing. (There may be other issues, but these are the ones I am able to spot.) Most importantly:
Legacy section: While Scottish historians' views of Edward are discussed, Welsh ones are not. Edward is typically seen by Welsh medievalists as a coloniser, someone who did immense damage to Welsh society, culture and self-confidence, which produced a lasting anger. Something of this needs capturing. He has also been said to have been prejudiced against Britons (eg, the Welsh speakers of Wales and Scotland). The sentence included from Marc Morris doesn't touch on these points; even if domination is considered inevitable, that wouldn't preclude an assessment of Edward's methods or resulting reputation.
Ireland: Ireland is not covered in the article at all, except to mention he governed it and it provided him income. Irish historians will have something to say on him, even if he governed at a distance. Did he represent continuity or change in the process of England's colonisation of Ireland? Their assessment may need a mention in Legacy also.
These may be less urgent but would round out the article:
Religious views: I'm not sure this fully captures the nature of his devotion. It covers his piety as actions, rather than as a belief system. There is commentary about his and Eleanor's piety giving them a sense that they were doing God's work, which makes sense as Crusaders, and explains better his sense of certainty while doing morally reprehensible things.
Relations with Eleanor: particularly, the support of and the psychological impact of the loss of Eleanor and some of his key advisors around 1290 is often held to have impacted the latter part of his reign. This doesn't seem to be discussed. Likewise, he encouraged her to accumulate land wealth to reduce the call on his own funds, which was an important change for future queens but impacted a lot on domestic relations with the landed classes who were being dispossessed; it limited what he could do with taxation and was a driver in his policies towards the Jews. I've touched on this but it could do with discussion earlier.
Overall, I think several of these topics (and the related omissions on his Jewish policies) shows the danger of relying largely on historical biographies to construct a rounded picture of the subject. Other groups of historians have important views also, and are likely to express these in their own literatures, while biographies of English Kings will be written primarily from an English perspective focused on questions of English good governance and creating the foundations of the English nation. There's a temptation for the authors to hero worship, and to avoid or downplay difficult topics. For Wikipedia to reach a rounded and representative view as seen by all reliable sources, it is necessary to look for these other perspectives in their own literatures. Jim Killock(talk)12:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding next steps:
There are some good sources for Edward I and Wales, the period being a major topic of scholarship unsurprisingly. I have a 1988 textbook "Edward I and Wales" which covers many of the points. There is also in the references "The Age of Conquest: Wales 1063-1415" by RR Davies from 2001, and of course "Hanes Cymru" also in translation (A History of Wales). I note these were not found or considered in the FAC review although the question was brought up.
Similarly there are some good texts regarding Ireland and Edward I, although I am not familiar with this period of Irish history at all. The first place to look appears to be "A new history of Ireland Volume II 1169-1534", which contains a dedicated chapter on Edward's Lordship, "The years of Crisis, 1254-1315" and a further chapter on the wars that were provoked in the period "A Land of War", both by James Lydon. There is by Robin Frame, "Ireland and Britain 1170 to 1450", and other works that may be of relevance. The themes from Lydon appear to be: the early takeover by Edward and some squabbling with his father; Edward treating Ireland as a revenue source and little else; corruption and incompetence in the administrators Edward appointed and repeatedly sacked; over-taxation to meet his war demands; speculation over food exports during the Welsh and Gascon wars; problems emerging from the Edwardian weak administration including a revival of the fortunes of the Gaelic areas' leadership, leading to regular wars in the period and following centuries. So not a very pretty record, and one that has parallels in Wales in terms of the methods of government.
I can probably do the section on Wales without too much risk of serious error, but it's harder for me to approach the Irish history texts without some help and review. It seems to me that it may be sensible to take the article back through a FA Review, especially as there doesn't seem to be much interest here in making further changes, and I understand that @Unlimitedlead is in semi-retirement. External review would also mean that any changes I suggest or make regarding Wales or the prior changes regarding Anglo-Jewish history and anti-semitism got some oversight; likewise anything done on religious views etc. Jim Killock(talk)21:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the lack of clarity.[1] I mean, the missing observations regarding Edward's legacy in Wales as is missing at the section Edward I of England#Legacy. See above, (The sentence included from Marc Morris doesn't touch on these points; even if domination is considered inevitable, that wouldn't preclude an assessment of Edward's methods or resulting reputation.) and also at FAC review ("Do we have information about Welsh historians' view of Edward?"; "As far as I am aware, there are no authoritative works on Edward I written from a Welsh perspective") which as I hope you can see, is not the case.
I've posted a short review of reviews of Edward I at Michael Prestwich#Biography of Edward I. Fairly similar criticisms could be made of this article, which I think was largely based on it, looking at the citations. While the reviews are complementary about his scholarship, they frequently observe an imbalance of subject matter. Other than the aspects listed above, these include:
Over-sympathetic treatment of his decisions, underplaying his mistakes and excusing his inconsistency and promise-breaking
Lack of attention to Edward's impact on Wales and Scotland (not just legacy judgements, but actions and results)
Inattention to the military tactics used
Lack of attention to social and religious aspects
Not consulting French language sources regarding Edward and Gascony
The reviews also raise an interesting question about the moral standards by which to judge Edward. On the one hand, he did what he felt he needed to do to be a strong and successful leader; on the other, his contemporaries knew and understood concepts like mercy, forgiveness and cruelty. This could be discussed in the legacy section.
Hi all, as mentioned above, I've put the page in for FA review so we can take another look at Welsh and Irish scholarship on Edward I, and perhaps review what is there about Scotland, Eleanor and a few other matters. I hope to put some work into this myself but especially given the lack of response or active editors here feel that I need some guidance making edits in these areas, some of which are less familiar to me. Jim Killock(talk)07:52, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't found anything about this in modern sources yet, but I have linked to the original document which does explain their thinking. It's out of copyright so could be added to Wikisource if desired. Jim Killock(talk)09:33, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I added some additional background on the war. Further cites are available via link if the ones already provided on Edward don't go into enough detail (most are from Morris & Google's blocked access) but the improved links—Adolf, King of the Germans, instead of unlinked king of Germans or Guy, Count of Flanders, instead of a link to the landing page for Counts of Flanders—should be kept in any case.
Moreover, the expense of the war is mentioned but not the mess that happened because of it. Edward and Philip both provoked the church by levying additional taxes on its lands; Philip's feud led directly to Clericis Laicos, Unam Sanctam, and the Avignon Papacy and the aftermath is what led to Philip going after his kingdom's Jews and the Templars. Edward's troubles with Winchelsey are mentioned but several paragraphs down. It'd be better if there were a linked bit in the article connecting down to it and if there was more context for the bulls: Clericos Laicos was primarily in reference to Philip (or Philip & Edward together) and Etsi de Statu was entirely in response to Philip's embargo on precious metals & stones leaving France at the same time a Colonna uprising was pushing on Papal finances and not anything Edward was doing to his local clergy. — LlywelynII05:52, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@JimKillock: Nice to hear. I got pulled into a tangent creating an article for a source that got mentioned but am trying to improve the Gascon War stuff there. Hopefully will have as good a set of sources as are available without academic access to Brill & co. and'll try to remember to bring over some here. It's already so good though, I kinda wanna let you guys do it instead of getting into an edit war over small stuff: The connection downward (eg) could just be a short note and #hashtag link but maybe some of the local editors dislike 'em. Etc. — LlywelynII04:18, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@LlywelynII FA Review is helpful for avoiding edit conflicts as we're passing the changes through a review and discussing them before applying them. Brill is on WP library's list, anything sourced through WPL should be fine. I'm fine working from sources you suggest if you don't want to make your suggestions there, but I think you could otherwise check or suggest what is missing as it would be new to me; I've also quite a lot else to work through, Edward and Ireland / Scotland are in a similar position of needing a review; the "British Isles" historiographical perspective is also on the list. Jim Killock(talk)07:20, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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